Dear Lenny Davis

As I read the Wall Street Journal this morning I was appalled, but not all that surprised, to come across an editorial by Lanny Davis on the Jeremiah Wright Story.  Mr. Davis sets himself up as the victim here writing,

Attacking the motives of those who feel this discomfort about Senator Obama's response or nonresponse to Reverend Wright's comments is not just unfair and wrong.... It misses the point (he continues to talk about Reagan Democrats)

I read those words and initially rather agreed with him.  It is quite understandable to be discomforted by Dr. Wright's remarks.  That was the intent of the remarks for his very own congregation.  However, the entire article is written in that paradigm.  The idea that suggests that it is `Ok' for White Americans like Mr. Davis to be "discomforted" by Dr. Wright.  However, it is "extremists" and "hateful" for Dr. Wright to be "discomforted" by White America. We can call for empathy, but we cannot call for trickle-down empathy. Mr. Davis is attempting to acquit himself by saying `I'm a little concerned about Dr. Wright, but those people over there really won't like it,' as if he is graciously revealing some unfound electoral truth that some people are disturbed by Dr. Wright.  Perhaps it ought not be his role to comment on the Wright topic, considering:


I am a strong supporter of and a substantial fundraiser for Hillary Clinton for president (though in this column I speak only for myself).

I have been involved in a lot of campaigns, and know that while officially one may be speaking for oneself, personally one is always bias.  When you part of a campaign, especially a losing one like Mr. Davis, the opponent quickly gets demonized.  No action of Mr. Obama can be pure, no part of his history innocent, no relationship not stained with some ethical failing.  Making sound judgments does not extend past Sunday's polls.  I myself have made this mistake numerous times.  I remember one case where I was convinced our primary opponent had taken money from a businessman who also gave money to Hamas.  My judgment was clouded on two levels.  A. The claim was not true our opponent was and is a good man.  B. Outside of the campaign I myself am extremely sympathetic to Hamas, yet during the clouded judgment of the election to be connected with them was a sin beyond all sins.  When Mr. Davis questions Sen. Obama:


Why did he stay a member of the congregation? Why didn't he speak up earlier? And why did he reward Rev. Wright with a campaign position even after knowing of his comments?

He does not take the time to question himself first, perhaps due to his connection to the Clinton Campaign, or justified outrage, or more likely some combination of the two.  Allow me to outline the two questions Mr. Davis, and we all, ought to ask ourselves before attacking Dr. Wright as hateful.

Do I agree with what Dr. Wright has said?

When one listens to the whole sermons, not just the snip-bits looped on the media, am I legitimately upset by the words of the Reverend?  The specific comments Mr. Davis is upset with are cited;


"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."
-- Sept. 16, 2001 (the first Sunday after 9/11)

Dr. Wright, directly before this statement, called the attacks of Sept. 11 an atrocity.  This first sentence is a fact, and a hard one to hear.  The second sentence is also a fact, and a hard one to hear.  We did support an apartheid South Africa.  And, at some level, Israel has occupied Palestinian lands and (rather frequently or occasionally) crossed the line of oppression.  "America's chickens are coming home to roost," is actually quoting an ambassador of Fox News, and is an idea presented in the 9/11 commission reports.  Perhaps Mr. Davis, and many of us, are insulted because we are `suppose' to be insulted.  But a funny thing happens when you pledge your allegiance to a country, as Dr. Wright did in the marines.  We do not simply pledge that the Fourth of July is a great day, and the Constitution a Great Document.  We also pledge responsibility for the ills and crimes committed under that flag.  


- "The government . . . wants us to sing God Bless America. No, no, no. God damn America; that's in the bible, for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human."-- 2003

Mr. Davis writes "that if my rabbi ever uttered such hateful words from the pulpit... I would have withdrawn immediately from his congregation."  Well, perhaps Mr. Davis ought to re-consider the prophets from which his Rabbi (presumably) reads.  If Isaiah were looped on Fox News saying "For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt, Your lips have spoke lies, and your tongue mutters wicked things," would Mr. Davis be likewise upset.  Would he call on Christians to deny Christ if the gospels were cut down by the MSM to Christ call to deny your family, or O'Rielly showed clips of Christ destroying the temple every 4 minutes.  I do not want to compare Dr. Wright to Christ, but only suggest that perhaps the prophets and the Gospels are not as calm as many take them to be.

- "The United States of White America."

57 Black Families paid the Inheritance Tax in 2005, compared with tens of thousands of White Families.  I doubt Mr. Davis truly believes the United States is not, at least economically, academically, legally, and electorally, a White America.  

Why Do I find Dr. Wright's statements jarring?

The first point of compassion is to look to oneself.  Mr. Davis suggests that the kind of compassion, which Sen. Obama advocates, "doesn't work for me." He is stuck on the matter of choice, that you do "get a chance to choose my spiritual or religious leader and my congregation."  Do you?  I'm Presbyterian, my parents were Presbyterian.  Mr. Davis is Jewish, I'm assuming he is was born so.  Mr. Obama grew up non-religious as a Black son of a White mother, and understandably hit life with a lot of questions.  As a 28 year-old man he came under guidance of a Pastor, not all that unusual in the Black Community, who told him it was "Ok" to be Black, even (shockingly) a good thing.  Davis would rather have had Mr. Obama stay with his White family.  Act White, Marry White, go to a White Church.  That is good politics - that would have been the advice of a good consultant.  However, Sen. Obama would not be Sen. Obama without TUCC and Dr. Wright.  If his compassion was a cheap compassion, the kind of compassion that cannot stand voices counter to one's own, he would not be the leader he is.  If his compassion were a cheap political phrase he would have rejected Dr. Wright outright. I remind Mr. Davis that the very reason Dr. Wright says his "hateful" statements is that he, and much of his congregation, were once a segregated and rejected people.  Now, Mr. Davis thinks we ought to once again reject Dr. Wright.  We ought not be able to bear listening to him.  How, Mr. Davis, is that any sort of progress?


- Some have suggested that any Clinton supporters who continue to raise this issue are "playing the race card" or taking the "low" road.

When I said on CNN recently that concerns about the Wright-Obama issue were "appropriate" to continue to be discussed, my friend Joe Klein of Time Magazine said, "Lanny, Lanny, you're spreading the poison right now" and that an "honorable person" would "stay away from this stuff."


I am not going to suggest Mr. Davis is "playing the race" card or taking the "low" road.  To do so would be for me to simply dismiss the anger of Mr. Davis.  But compassion, and empathy, means seeing yourself in another.  Like that old Clint Black song "Put Yourself in my Shows" understanding is at the heart of compassion.  We cannot simply "reject and denounce" persons with opinions differing from common wisdom.  Even if, and especially if, those persons are our spiritual leaders.  To do so would be like a Doctor who amputates at the first sign of bleeding.  It only leads to more Hate, more Division, more Anger.  That race card ought to be played and played often, but responsibly, with understanding, and with compassion.

That is why many of us here at Princeton Theological Seminary (Faculty and Students) are inviting Dr. Wright to speak here (This is not an announcement arrangements are still being made).  For those of you who don't know.  Princeton sends out more main-line pastors than any seminary in the country.  It is the nations oldest, largest, and wealthiest theological institution.  It is widely respected as the nation's best theological institution with the lowest acceptance rate and the top-scholars across the board.  If Wright is brought in to speak here it will mean a lot to pastors across the country, and likely send a pretty heavy statement that much of the American Theological Community stands by him.  Hopefully, perhaps with a smaller microphone than Mr. Davis, Princeton Seminary is going to live out compassion and empathy.

CrossPosted at MyDD



Display:


Re: Dear Lenny Davis (2.00 / 5)

Are you really so naive to think that the Wright issue will not be used in the GE?


by americanincanada on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:36:19 PM EST

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (2.00 / 3)

Nope. I think it's one issue, and I think Obama is better at dealing with these sorts of attacks than Hillary Clinton.

Are you really so naive to think that [issue X] won't play a role during the General Election?

Do you want me to list all the things [issue X] could be for the Clinton campaign? I know a lot of you who think harping on Wright and Reszko is just clear-eyed politics, "facing the facts about what the Republicans will do in the General...", get very upset when someone turns the tables and mentions what the Republicans have and will have on the Clintons.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:42:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

I'm not ignorant, but Lanny is not helping


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

It is not about being naive. Lanny Davis and others have their own agendas and will do what it takes to see that their agendas are fulfilled.  The problem is that Americans after awhile get tired of the same old nonsense but Lanny Davis wants to make sure that they don't. He can write as many Op-eds as he likes but the fact remains that those folks who HATED Obama for issues other than policies are going to hate him regardless and are not going to vote for him.  He has not taken that great of a hit by independent voters and by now if he had, then I would agree with Lanny that we should be worried.

Hillary wonders why she is losing? Because she is a shit stirrer.


by regina1983 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

If it wasn't Wright it would be something. Look at what they did to Kerry, Gore. Look what happened to McCain in 2000. They would find and exploit something. Democrats need to stop being affraid of their own shadows, constantly wringing their hands in fear of what the big bad republicans will do. Stop letting the Republicans control the terms of the debate. Maybe if they did that they'd stop loosing elections.

Stand up for Dr. Wright. What he said about 9/11? It was true in many ways. And yet if he listened to him when he said it he was saying stop the cycle of violence. Examine yourselves in this time and try to become a better person.

When it comes to all the anti-white stuff he was wrong. Senator Obama said as much. But you have to recognize the era that Dr. Wright grew up in, the personal racism he experienced. I know everyone says hey we got laws now, everythings fine, why is he so angry. It's funny though, nobody tells Jews that they need to get over the holocost. Hey, we got laws now, it won't happen again. For some people it is personal and it will never be over. We need to understand those people and learn from them.

Yes it's a crackpot assertion to say that the federal government created AIDS. But it's also not without precedent. Look at the Tuskegee experiments. Black men prevented by the government from getting syphilis treatments so the disease could be studied. Men that went on to give it to their wives. Whose children were born with congenital syphilis. To this day the number of black people that participate in medical studies is much lower then for other populations. Gee, I wonder why.

Finally these are comments from 3-4 sermons over 30 years. There is no evidence that comments like these were at all common, and I imagine people have been pouring over all the records they can find for more instances and none have come out. Meanwhile this is a church, no matter what you think of it's pastor, that has done many many good works in it's community.

Let that be the story. Not the occasionally nutty ravings of a guy that is now retired.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

Of course not.  It's being used in the primary.  Check out Lanny Davis' latest hatchet piece in the WSJ - have you read it?


by Mostly on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:42:41 PM EST

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (1.00 / 2)

Lanny Davis is  a Liebercrat hack and a Bush apologist.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:44:28 PM EST

For Rumarhazzit (none / 0)

Who obviously doesn't know much about Lanny the Liebercrat:

http://firedoglake.com/2006/07/12/livin- lovin-lieberman/

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=9F0DE7D6113EF935A15756C0A9609C8B6 3


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bravo Lanny Davis (2.00 / 2)

His comments are spot on. I just find it odd that he is the one under siege while pond scum like  Rev. Wright spread poison and vitriol and people on here defend him.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:48:49 PM EST

You called a black preacher pond scum? (none / 0)

That is a big NO NO in the black community.  Remind me how Hillary would have won the nomination and the general election when she insults 30% of the voters she needs?


by regina1983 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You called a black preacher pond scum? (2.00 / 2)

Who is she insulting? Obama himself says he woudln't have stayed in the congregation had he known all the nonsense that Rev. Wright has spewed? Unless Obama is being disingenous here, there even he has a problem with what Wright has said.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You called a black preacher pond scum? (2.00 / 1)

NO I called a preacher who spews racist, UnAmericna garbage Pond scum. And I stand by this. I don't care if he is black or white or Green with red polka dots. Go play your race card elsewhere.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You called a black preacher pond scum? (1.00 / 1)

I love that line.

"I don't care if your black, white... green". Does anyone else know 'the type'?

Anyway, what racist garbage?  People aren't going to forget that he stood by the Clintons during their darkest hour - and they're repaying him by unleashing their hatchet men.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You called a black preacher pond scum? (none / 0)

"I don't care if your black, white... green". Does anyone else know 'the type'?

Oh yeah. Other key phrases include:

"I'm no racist, but you have to admit...."

and

"I know it's not 'politically correct'", usually pronounced with dripping sarcasm, "but I've got the guts to say...."


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:38:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You called a black preacher pond scum? (2.00 / 1)

I just find it odd the lengths that Obama supporters will go to defend scum like Wright.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:06:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wright is not scum (none / 0)

were inviting him to speak here at Princeton Seminary... he has been defended by Christian leaders from all sides, and denominations.  


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wright is not scum (2.00 / 1)

I don't give a fig if you are inviting him for tea and crumpets. I find him to be a repulsive human being. Defend him all you wish. Don't expect me to.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:25:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope one day you pull your (1.00 / 2)

head out of your ....


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope one day you pull your (none / 0)

Is this what they teach in Seminary these days? Wow. I guess civility and tolerance is only to be extended to people who refer to Italians as "Garlic noses" and who spread wild conpiracy theories about the government creating the AIDS virus.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope one day you pull your (none / 0)

I never said I was a ordination, just a member of the community...in sociology of religion


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:43:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope one day you pull your (none / 0)

I never said I was a ordination, just a member of the community...in sociology of religion


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:43:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope one day you pull your (1.00 / 1)

They do teach students to stand up to backward looking idiotic beliefs.  To defend the oppressed in society.  And to call a spade a spade.  Your comments on this thread stand alone.  Obviously you have chose to stick your head in a whole, to not entertain the thought that Wright has a point, that his anger comes from somewhere, and that you are wrong.  Or, perhaps, and even sadder, this is all a stick for your partisan political purposes.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wright is not scum (1.00 / 1)

I hope one day you pull your head out of you (well I won't go there)


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wright is not scum (none / 0)

Of course you know nothing about him beyond about ninety seconds of video tape and that he's associated with Barack Obama.

But I realize that bitterness is the only thing getting some of you  out of your virtual beds these days.

So keep hating, keep spluttering, keep hating.

The grown ups will take care of things.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wright is not scum (none / 0)

You mean "Grown ups" who think "Take your head out of your" is an intelligent rebuttal? Get real. You have no idea about what I have read or seen about it. There's plenty and more available every day. We have a thing called the internet. It works quite well. I know plenty about Wright and I think what he has said is vile and indefensible.


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:03:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wright is not scum (none / 0)

One adjusts one's discourse to meet the level of the interlocutor. I think when dealing with a bitter, hate-filled crank like you,
"Pull your head out of your ass" is a perfectly appropriate rejoinder.
by BlueinColorado on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:59:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You called a black preacher pond scum? (2.00 / 1)

They are repaying him, but gasp using his actual intolerant words agaist him in an accurate mannor. Oh the horror!


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:07:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (2.00 / 3)

Go Lanny!

I can find nothing wrong with anything he said.

When are you people going to stop giving Obama a free ride?


On the train thanks to HRC...
by BRockNYC on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:50:05 PM EST

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

When will people stop giving Hillary a free ride?  


by regina1983 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (2.00 / 2)

Ha!  I didn't know you were a comedian.


On the train thanks to HRC...
by BRockNYC on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

What free ride? Have you read a newspaper since 1992?


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:53:46 PM EST

The problem I am having... (2.00 / 2)

is the sum total of the commiunications/feelings that Wright's words connote.

I don't worry about sound bites - you can debate the specific words and the context all you want.

What I am concerned about is that Rev. Wright's communications to his congregation seems angry so much of the time.  And the anger seems to be directed to "me" - I'm not black.  I never walked in their shoes.  I understand that.

But then I see Wright's plaudits for Farikan.  And I see Obama's endorsement by the New Black Party (more subdued than the old version, no doubt).  And I read Spike Lee's words (calling the Clintons and "whitey" Massah...and telling respected AA's who have done some mighty heavy lifting for their community to get out of the way or be swept into the ocean.)  I find that statement to be very threatening, BTW.

And I don't know what Obama thinks.  But I can imagine what he thinks - and that bothers me.

BO says its time for talks about race in this country.  But who in the hell do you talk to?  I see all of the hatred (yup!) and anger of 50 years ago still be spouted in the AA community.  I understand that....but I don't see how that's going to get us anyplace.  In fact, I think it hurts, not helps.

I am less ready to "talk about race" now that I ever have been.  To even suggest something is met with anger, shouts and being called "whitey" and Massah.

I can't change the color of my skin, either.  But how is the vitrol that we're hearing from Obama supporters supposed to help?

And I repeat...BO talks nice about wanting to bring things along - but he has no follow-up to his call to talk about race.  He has not tried to defend "us" to the other side.  He is, as he is so proud of, a blank slate upon which we can paint our own picture of him.

Sorry, but the picture I would have to paint right about BO and race is not a nice one.

IMHO.


by Shazone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:54:30 PM EST

Oh, troll away!! (none / 0)


by Shazone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem I am having... (2.00 / 2)

 He has not tried to defend "us" to the other side.

"us" and "the other side"? Like his mother and his grandparents?

You obviously didn't hear or read his speech on the matter, and you obviously would be deaf and blind to both because you want to be.

What I am concerned about is that Rev. Wright's communications to his congregation seems angry so much of the time.

"so much of the time"? How many hours of tapes have you watched? Or, since your such an expert, did you travel to Chicago and attend services? How many?

And the anger seems to be directed to "me" - I'm not black.

A whole bunch of white people attend that church and don't share your paranoia and fear, and desperate desire to "imagine" yourself a victim.

I am less ready to "talk about race" now that I ever have been.  To even suggest something is met with anger, shouts and being called "whitey" and Massah.

You trawl through some troll comments to find something to offend you, because you want to be offended, you want an excuse to hate Obama, because you want to justify your "imagining" of what he thinks. Because he had the gall to be a better candidate than HIllary Clinton, to not understand that it is her "turn", and she shouldn't have had to earn the nomination.

Well it isn't, and she didn't. She isn't going to be the nominee. My first choice was Gore, my second was Edwards. You don't see me "imagining" things to justify my hatred of other candidates. Because I don't hate the other candidates. I do wish Hillary Clinton had not chosen to be a middling, cautious, Broderist Liebercrat while a Senator, that she had shown some of this "fight" you people are always yelling about. She didn't.

I don't "imagine" this election is about me, or my feelings. It's about what's best for the country.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, your reply was certainly warm and... (2.00 / 1)

encouraging.  Conducive to "discussion" don't you think?


by Shazone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:12:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, your reply was certainly warm and... (2.00 / 2)

Your comment was kind of scary, and you have several times posted your intention to stay home if you don't get your way in the primary. Are you going to pretend that I cost Obama your vote 'cause I'm such a big meanie?

Now that Universal's gone, are you adopting his trick of posting daily "I was open-minded, but I now must announce with great sorrow, regret and Grave, Grave Concern, that I cannot cast my vote for Barack Obama because of ... [whatever Mount Molehill you people were trying to spin into a scandal on that given day]"?

He posted those at least once a day for three or four months before he finally lost it and got himself banned.

For the record, I don't think you're a racist. I think that you have, as you yourself said, "imagined" a lot of nonsense to justify your pre-existing hatred of Obama. And I think if Biden, Dodd or Edwards had been the NotHIllary, you would have found reasons to hate them too.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your are so wrong. I wrote my original... (2.00 / 1)

comment today worried that I would be called a racist but actually wanting to have some reasonable dialogue.  I also recognized that people like you might not believe that so I posted my own "Troll away" comment.

I wrote a comment a couple of weeks ago about my feelings as an feminist and it got used by an Obamacrat to call me out publically so I could be protrayed as cranky and old.  

So, yes, sometimes I sound angry.  Go ahead and scream and yell at me all of the time - that is certainly helpful to your cause.

I was an Clark, Edwards and Gore supporter before I settled on HRC.  And I settled on HRC for substantive reasons.

I have substantive reasons not to want to vote for Obama - but you would never stop to think about that, would you.


by Shazone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your are so wrong. I wrote my original... (none / 0)

I have substantive reasons not to want to vote for Obama - but you would never stop to think about that, would you.

Not after that "us", "other side", "whitey", "Massa" rant.

You made yourself look.... odd (I'm feeling charitable).

Still waiting for an honest answer about how many hours of Wright's services you have observed.

Cause, remember, you're not interested in soundbites.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:35:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You seriously need to look in the mirror. (2.00 / 1)

Everything you accuse me of you are doing yourself.  

And no, I have not listened to 20 years of Wright's sermons...that is not what my issue is...but you would never know it because you don't want to understand my statement/question.

Good luck.


by Shazone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You seriously need to look in the mirror. (2.00 / 1)

Everything you accuse me of you are doing yourself.  

I referred to white people as "us" and black people as "the other side"?

No. No, I didn't.  I find that thinking rather frightening, in fact.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:41:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And since... (none / 0)

.... you are such a very, very intellectually honest person, you're going to answer my question about how many hours of services you have watched and attended before you formed your very well-founded Concern about Wright's congregation, aren't you? Cause a deep thinker like you, you're not Concerned about sound-bites.

I don't worry about sound bites - you can debate the specific words and the context all you want.

What I am concerned about is that Rev. Wright's communications to his congregation seems angry so much of the time.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:26:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're not listening!!!! (2.00 / 1)

I said I don't worry about sound bites because I will not join the chorus of voices that only question that part of the story.

I don't like those words, but I understand that they have to be taken in context - which is open to many interpretations.

I am worried about something else - a wound that has been ripped open by the sum total of the issues that have been exposed.  And I don't see saying that we need to talk about race actually talking about it.

So I am left to wonder - who is supposed to start this conversation?  Who is involved?  Who moderates it?  When?  How?  And where has your candidate been since inviting this conversation three weeks ago?

But obviously you don't want to talk about anything.  So be it.

Good luck.


by Shazone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're not listening!!!! (none / 0)

What I am concerned about is that Rev. Wright's communications to his congregation seems angry so much of the time.

So much of how much time? How many hours of Wright's sermons have you observed? In person or on tape?


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:39:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem I am having... (2.00 / 1)

"the sum total of the communications/feelings"
"Rev. Wright's communications to his congregation seems angry so much of the time"

"the sum total"? "So much of the time"? ...How many hours of Rev. Wright's sermons over the past 20 years have you listened to?

"And I don't know what Obama thinks" ...Obama has told us what he thinks, not only in his amazing speech on race, but in his continual denouncements of Rev. Wright's vitriolic language.

You can imagine what you he thinks all you want. Then you can shut your ears to what he says. (Obama, not Wright)
Then you can paint your picture about BO and race and conclude whatever you want to conclude.

That's what a free country is all about.


Let the children lose it Let the children use it Let all the children boogie
by toyomama on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:27:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obamacrats really are sad. And that's... (none / 0)

so sad.

Good luck.


by Shazone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:36:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamacrats really are sad. And that's... (none / 0)

Well, name-calling doesn't bolster your 'points' very well.

And, please don't be sad for me.
I'm very happy about how this election is turning out.


Let the children lose it Let the children use it Let all the children boogie
by toyomama on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:47:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem I am having... (2.00 / 1)

Since you've never been to a black church, most of the sermons would be considered delivered in an angry tone by people not familiar with the practices. You haven't addressed any of the OP's points as to the validity of the statements made by Rev Wright, maybe you should consider actually listening to people who make you uncomfortable. Uncomfortable makes you think.

As to Obama's not immediately quiting a church that you don't like, the double standard is obvious, shocking and getting way old.


by Mylie on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:42:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem I am having... (none / 0)

If Shazone or anyone else is really interested in "context" and not dealing in "soundbites", Terry Gross did a fresh air last week wtih a scholar in Black Liberation theology who explained how anger fits into the traditional pattern of the sermons in BLT. It's actually quite enlightening to anyone who's really interested, and reflects on both Christianity and American history.

Downloads are free.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem I am having... (none / 0)

I heard the same segment and took the time to learn more about it. It's way to easy to clutch the pearls than to eduate yourself.


by Mylie on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The problem I am having... (none / 0)

you can't just expect people to play nice after stomping their faces with boots - sorry, life ain't that pretty.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:00:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (2.00 / 2)

It's all bullshit. Wright's sermon was overtly misogynist and racist. The fact that Obama didn't immediately and permanently distance himself from that pigshit rhetoric is absolutely fucking disgrace.

Jesus was a semite - not an African. Now I don't mind African Americans remaking Jesus in their image as Europeans traditionally have done - I mean, Jesus did not have flowing golden hair, big blue eyes and a fine boned European face as he is traditionally portrayed. But to portray the crucifixion as Jesus, an African, being persecuted by rich white Roman men is neither biblically or historically accurate. Jesus was betrayed by his fellow Jews who were probably angry at him for overturning the money changers tables in the temple. Not the Romans - they didn't give a fuck about Jesus - in fact, Pilate makes clear that he opposes the decision to crucify Jesus. Wright's portrayal of the events of the crucifixion leaves one wondering if he's ever actually read the story (yes, I know he's allegedly a bible scholar - his massive fuck up there suggests otherwise) or whether he's just a big, fat partisan liar. And no one has been willing to call this joker on his complete misrepresentation of what the story is. In this nation, obsessed with Christianity, we have all these tip toeing around this. Go read the damn bible yourself if you doubt me. Here's a Wiki link to the story and to the specific biblical text.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

So when he tells the story of Jesus crucifixion as the tale of an African man being persecuted by rich white Romans, and tells that tale in the context of this election - he is engaging in both racism and in misogyny. When he states that Hillary has never been called a nigger (thereby saddling her with responsibility for the racism in this nation) and doesn't know what it's like to have to work twice as hard, he is ignoring the fact that women and African American men earn almost the same amount of money as the other - even though white women are far more likely to have college degrees - and are, thus very well acquainted with what it's like to have to work twice.

Wright is a liar. The fact that Barry and Michelle have taken their children to see this hate monger is a real blight on their human decency. I wouldn't take my children to see someone who spoke of other races with contempt that Wright does, and it's a very clear example of Barry's lack of judgement that he did.

Don't get me wrong - the pro-African American rhetoric  isn't the problem. Wright is a hatemonger - pure and simple. He hates women and he's willing to be portrayed as hating whites. Bizarre.

I cannot believe the left is justifying this kind of hate rhetoric. We sure as heck accept it out of a white preacher. I have no idea why we're accepting it out of this guy.


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:27:55 PM EST

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

Did you ever protest the golden hair, big blue eyed Jesus? That wouldn't be biblically or historically accurate either. I'm figuring not. Sermons are always tailored to the crowd that they address. When Rev. Wright correctly said that Clinton has never been called a nigger, you go too broad. He mentioned one particular person. That's it, that's all.

Did America support untenable actions over the course of history? Yes. Is it biblical to damn a sin? Yes. Black Americans learn of these things in church might be shocking to you but to it's shocking to me that Christians of all colors are not taught about sin in church.


by Mylie on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

"So when he tells the story of Jesus crucifixion as the tale of an African man being persecuted by rich white Romans, and tells that tale in the context of this election - he is engaging in both racism and in misogyny."

I kinda wonder if you understand what the word misogyny means.  Misogyny is a dislike, mistrust or hatred of women.  Any mistakes with regards to the crucifixtion story is not misogyny (given that the only two women in Jesus' life are not even mentioned).  Call it racism if you want to (although that sounds ridiculous), but your whole diatribe sounds like the rantings of person who needs to deal with her/his own anger before he/she comment on others.  

Not every action taken by opponents of Hillary is from a deep seated hatred of women.  It might be that they don't like her specifically.  All I've seen you do over the past several weeks is rant and cry foul on behalf of all women.  This is completely inappropriate given that you don't know all women.  I know some women who can't stand Hillary.  Are they misogynists?

Finally, your description of the Jesus' death is wrong and disturbing.  The Romans killed Jesus.  They whipped him, had him drag his cross (as all the prisoners did) and nailed him up.  There has been a constant attempt to blame this on people who at the time were under foreign occupation.  The reasoning behind Jesus' execution were probably mutiple.  The Jews did not like the perceived blasphemies and threat to power of their religious leaders.  But the Romans had their reasons as well.  They did not like the threat to their political power.  To blame this on a people is an act of ignorance and hatred.  And isn't that why you're decrying Wright (and by proximity Obama).


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:28:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (2.00 / 1)

Go read the fucking bible. The Jews persecuted Jesus - they put the Roman's up to it. Just read goddamn tale and don't lecture on something you've obviously never read. If you don't have a fucking bible in your house, then follow the Wiki link.

And yes, Wright's sermon was ripe with misogyny. You may know the defintion but you clearly don't recognize when you hear it or you haven't hear Wright's speech. To say that Hillary doesn't know what it's like to work twice as hard because she's rich and white, misses the fact that most women - including Hillary when she was young and wasn't rich or well known - have to work twice as hard as men to get ahead. So, yes, it was misogynistic. It relied on an inaccurate stereotype and denied the reality the most women face in this world - by definition, that's misogyny.

it was a hateful, ignorant, anti-progressive speech and it's mindboggling that the left is justifying it.

Wanting to vote for someone besides Hillary is not misogyny. But a huge amount of the ignorant rhetoric tossed around about hillary is misogynistic. I know you don't understand that.


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:22:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (2.00 / 1)

Go read the fucking bible. The Jews persecuted Jesus - they put the Roman's up to it

"His blood be upon us and upon our children"?

Biblical literalists for Hillary? Mel Gibson Progressives?

Do you also believe the Earth is 6,000 years old? And that we should stone adulterers?


by BlueinColorado on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

The idea is more like Jesus was in a context a lot like AA's in America


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:56:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (2.00 / 1)

unfortunately, he drew the analogy specifically. And he cast Hillary as the rich, white Romans who persecuted Jesus. It was both racist and misogynist and the inverse would not be tolerated for a second from a white preacher and appropriately so.

It's not acceptable that a progressive is listening to a hatemonger for 20 years - it's just not.


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (2.00 / 1)

I am one of those Clinton supporters who was NOT offended by the Wright sermons. ( I was disgusted by his Clinton rants but thats not outrage). What really does bother me tho, is the persistant meme of not reducing him to 30 second sound bites. Why does this bother me? Because that is EXACTLY what has been done to Bill Clinton (and by extention Hillary). People have taken a few remarks, amped them up through filters of personal bias and branded them as "racist" or "race-baiting" . They refuse to credit them with the 35 years of service before those remarks. To me, if you apply those standards to the Clintons, you should allow those standards to be applied to Wright (and by extention Obama).


by monstergrrl on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:41:37 PM EST

Re: Dear Lenny Davis (none / 0)

I agree that many of Bill Clinton's statements have had a job done on them...most notably "fairy-tell."  I also think the Clintons, and Obama (Michille is still learning), know that is a cost of political life.

The sad thing about Rev. Wright is that he is a pastor.  And, even though these things were said in his church family, they have been blown up because he happens to be Barack Obama's pastor.  Not only has Wright payed a heavy price, but so have other black theologians like Peter Paris and James Cone - Cone has had a number of articles misquoting his books, and segments calling him a racists.  It just isn't equal to say this happens to the Clintons too.  Because when Black Liberation Theology is attacked a whole people group, as much as 6-7% of the population, are attacked... that is wrong.  Telling them to go back to their corner, that there opinions are "hateful", is a from of resegregation.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:48:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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