Obama Should Debate

Sen. Clinton has challenged Sen. Obama to a Lincoln-Douglas style debate.  Which, as a huge Lincoln buff I'm predisposed to like anyway - especially on the 150th anniversary.  But, if Clinton truly wants a debate in the style of Lincoln-Douglas Sen. Obama ought to take it.

Here is Clinton's Statement: "So here is my proposal: I'm offering Senator Obama the chance to debate me one-on-one, no moderators. Just the two of us going for 90 minutes asking and answering questions. We'll set whatever rules seem fair."  Though, as one commentator said today the person proposing Lincoln-Douglas debates is almost always behind.  The last person to do so was Mike Huckabee, before that Chris Dodd, before that Fred Thompson.

So what does "truly in the style of Lincoln-Douglas Debate" mean? Well in High School debates across the country it has taken a format as follows, which is not a true Lincoln-Douglas Debate :


6 min.    Affirmative Constructive     The Affirmative reads a pre-written case

3 min.    Cross Examination     The Negative asks the Affirmative questions

7 min.    Negative Constructive (and first negative Rebuttal)     The Negative (almost always) reads a pre-written case and (almost always) moves on to address the Affirmative's case.

3 min.    Cross Examination     The Affirmative asks the Negative questions

4 min.    First Affirmative Rebuttal     The Affirmative addresses both their opponent's arguments and their own

6 min.     The Negative Rebuttal     The Negative covers everything said in the round and gives the judge reasons to vote for them

3 min.    The Second Affirmative Rebuttal     The Affirmative may either summarize the round or cover everything, but they always give reasons to vote for them

Now Lincoln and Douglas actually took considerably more time than that.  But due to 20th century attention spans the format has bee shortened.  If it were a true Lincoln-Douglas debate both candidates would give their stump speech first - for around 20 minutes.  Which favors Obama.  As KO said "New rule.  Never speak after Barack Obama." Speaking with/against him on the same stage cannot be a pleasant experience.

Also a trait of the Lincoln-Douglas debates were they were at town-gatherings.  Completely open to the public.  And, their nationalistic (ok patriotic) pomp was in full bloom.  The Clinton-Obama debate should be held outdoors and fully open to the public.  Perhaps in a baseball stadium or even in an open field.  The debate should be the capping point of a day long celebration of America.  Much like the Iowa JJ Dinner.  I imagine Obama's masses would show up.

I think Obama will win the debate.  Of course Lincoln did not win in the public eye, of his day, during the debates.  But he won in the historical sense.  Why?  His rhetoric was America.  It appealed trough out to the greater good.  Lincoln was steeped in Thoreau, Emerson, and Whitman.  In fact he and Mary Todd often had fights over his reading of the 'vulgar' Leaves of Grass.  His high points in the debate echo these authors.  "America's story begins at Dawn," "My Ademic Song," "The Party of Hope verses the Party of Memory."  These authors set the standard for American Political rhetoric.  It is in Roosevelt's "The only thing to fear is fear itself," Kennedy's "Ask not what you can do for your country," Reagan's "It is Morning in America."  These authors are at the root of the American personality.  One that is innocent, memoryless, and hopeful.  In the realm of rhetoric this is how Obama has one.  It as if his campaign is running Emerson's campaign of "The Party of Hope verse the Party of Memory," or, "We are the Change we have been waiting for."  Lincoln's rhetoric absorbed these authors, and so does Obama's.  And the Lincoln-Douglas debate format allows that rhetoric to soar.  

Plus alls having an overly patriotic forum in the shoes of Lincoln does it to remind people of Lincoln.  A Tall, Lanky, inexperienced, politician from Illinois.  Obama's speech could frame himself as Lincoln.  

So If the Clinton Campaign is really willing to have Lincoln-Douglas Debates... I think the Obama campaign should allow it on 5 conditions.

1. It is open air allowing everyone who shows to hear.

  1. It last well over 45 mintues.
  2. It is billed as a historical event.
  3. It is done with a full day of patriotic pump.
  4. The Candidates appear to get along during the debate.

It could be a great moemnt for the Party.  It could be a great moment in American History.  And, John McCain would be completely forgotten about.



Display:


Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

It would be nice if Obama would at least propose a debate that he would participate in.  So far, all I've heard out of his camp is that he does not want to debate (because we have had 21 debates, a misleading claim).  Period.  That strikes me as more of his "hey let's try to run out the clock" mentality.  What is he so afraid of?  


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:38:00 PM EST

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

I think he is afraid of what happened in the last debate.  The perception by the media that we have run out of issues to talk about


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:39:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

Well, since there would be no moderators - they could talk about whatever they want to.  I think there is plenty of interesting information that has come out of the debates thus far - from what they would do in Iran to gas prices to health care.  Certainly there is no shortage of issues to cover.  

Does Obama really believe voters would rather decide this thing at block parties and pep rallies?  That is just preaching to the choir - that won't win him new voters.  He may be fine in NC with that approach, but Indiana is going to be close, and he comes off looking petty by refusing to debate.


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

I think neither candidate would be able to attack, because the crowd would boo.  His rallies do help a lot.  I know of several undecideds who have gone.  And they inspire his base to volunteer.  The cell-phone phone band before each one, and try to pick up voter info.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is claiming that they discussed healthcare (none / 0)

in the last debate, but they didn't.

Why has healthcare not been discussed in a debate so far?


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:53:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is claiming that they discussed healthca (none / 0)

They did for a brief moment.  But I think an extended Health Care discussion would be good for Obama, because his plan is more "nuanced" to use John Edward's term.  And, he has really good reasons for not providing a mandate.  One of which, by my math, is that the Clinton Plan waste around 6 billion dollars a year by not exempting the roughly 3 million Americans who do not take any form of health care for religious reasons.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you should (none / 0)

as former Bill Clinton's press secretary as to why he did not raise that subject more.

I think he got distracted by shine flag pins.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:16:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton also (none / 0)

ignored requests for debates in races. It's a tactical decision.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:45:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton also (none / 0)

She has gone on record as saying "I will debate anyone anywhere anytime".  Obama has gone on record as saying "No more debates".  I understand what you are saying - but if it is a tactical decision then propose some other format.  I think it is a strategic decision to run out the clock, not a tactical decision - otherwise he would make a counter offer.


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:49:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton also (none / 0)

Except that she has avoided debates before.

You want to call it strategic that's fine. The clock has done been run out.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton also (2.00 / 1)

>>You want to call it strategic that's fine. The clock has done been run out.

That remains to be seen.  Refusing to debate hurts Obama as much as a poor debate performance IMHO.  If that swings Indiana, you will wish he instead had agreed to a debate, and had a strong performance.


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton also (none / 0)

Hurts him with who? Certainly super delegates won't care. You'd never be able to blame not debating on an Indiana loss. But even if he lost Indiana it wouldn't matter. He'll win enough delegates in the remaining contests that she'll never catch up and the supers will not go to her in sufficient numbers for her to be the nominee.

Marginalizing her is a smart strategy. She doesn't have the money to compete and wants free air time. He  is running ads in the remaining states and bleeding her dry. It's the smart thing to do.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton also (none / 0)

>>You'd never be able to blame not debating on an Indiana loss.

I think his refusal to debate will make for a pretty compelling Clinton talking point.  You can blame his loss in Indiana on whatever you want, but I think as it stands right now, he loses.  And the longer this  nomination race goes on, the worse it is for Obama - he is going to close out getting beat badly in several primaries.  The only way he can avoid that or marginalize the impact of it is by closing this out in Indiana.


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:05:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton also (none / 0)

It's OK if he loses Indiana. He doesn't need to close it out in Indiana. You're looking at it the exact opposite way of how it needs to be looked at. She needs to win the rest of the contests with about 70%. That's the only thing that needs to happen. If that doesn't happen she's not going to be the nominee. And we know that's not going to happen.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton also (none / 0)

Clinton does not need to win out at 70% - that is ludicrous.  She needs to win over the vast majoriity of the superdelegates.  But I would suspect if Obama emerges in June as a flawed GE candidate that the party will nominate Clinton - whether by superdelegate defection to Clinton or otherwise.


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:35:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton also (none / 0)

If he enters the GE flawed it will be her doing.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:49:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton also (none / 0)

Have you actually looked at the numbers she needs to win by? It seems like you haven't.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:55:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Honesty (none / 0)

If someone from the Clinton world would simply say "we need the debate b/c we need the gaffe, the fumble, and the free advertising" we could respect that.  Yet, the other reasons are laughable.  This is why the last debate had so little content.  It has all been covered.  Unless you think another hour of flag pins, Tuzla, Wright, Weathermen, etc. will really help us.  This form of dishonesty doesn't really do you any good.  It surely makes Hillary look bad.


by SovSov on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

Bravo. And if it was truly set up as a Lincoln/Douglas debate, as you have it here, I think he'd be more inclined to do it.

Instead, it's set up as a series of two-minute back and forth series of soundbyte-gathering sections, which is just what we need more of in this race.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:39:58 PM EST

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

Then why doesn't he propose something?  He has already gone on the record as saying "there will be no more debates" before Indiana / NC.  Which is really a shame.  He will just keep saying "we've already had 22 debates" - which isn't true.

I expect more from Obama if I am to support him.


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

Well, hell, why should he? There's been 22 debates. In the general, there'll be two, maybe three. You better believe McCain wouldn't take this bait, either. You don't accommodate yourself to the person you're losing to because the only way they can get their face out is through free press. If it was Obama/McCain, and McCain was being schooled in the polls, was out of money, and demanded debates, what would you say?

Clinton was happy to engage in this behavior when it suited her political. Karma sucks, huh?


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

No, there have been what - 3 or 4 debates.

>>You don't accommodate yourself to the person you're losing to because the only way they can get their face out is through free press.

I understand what you are saying.  But I don't think this race is over.  And refusing to debate also looks bad.  I think this attitude to refuse a debate may cost Obama Indiana - which will prolong this race and may ultimately cost him the nomination.


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:52:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

Nah. He's hitting the ground in Indiana, which will benefit him far more. If this was the general election, I might agree with you. Now, I think the people in Indiana would care more about actually meeting with him and hearing his message in person.

Hell, he's already got great inroads. Ask any Hoosier what they think about basketball, and you'll find out it's right next to religion there. Heck, the only way Clinton could fight the huge advantage Obama has in this regard is to take a few laps in an Indy car.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

So the lesson of Pennsylvania is that voters vote based on their bowling hobby?

Let's see - in Indiana vote for the candidate who is with you on the issues and will fight for you, or the one who plays hoops?  I think Hillary's still got this race locked up.


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

Have you been looking at the numbers at all or is this just a gut feeling?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

Both - I have looked at the numbers - ARG has Clinton up by 5.  Other polls have this neck and neck but with 10% undecided - if recent trends hold, late breakers vote for Clinton.

Also, I'm from the midwest, and I think Indiana is going to be very similar to Ohio / Missouri.  The problem for Obama is that Indianapolis gives him nowhere near the demographic advantages he enjoyed in St. Louis / KC.  That being said, it is a neighboring state of Illinois where Obama should get at least 1-2% for being a "local" candidate.

It will be close but I think Clinton takes Indiana.  Obama has to do something to seize the lead - a strong performance in a debate would do that for him IMHO.


by mikes101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:12:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

I meant for the whole race. It's Clinton who has to do a lot not Obama.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

Indiana is also one of the youngest states in the union.  And, rather shockingly, 70% of the population live in "urban" areas.  It really is an even playing field.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:16:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Indiana is ... one of the youngest states.. (none / 0)

Please cite your source for this statement.

US Census Bureau shows Indiana to be fairly close to US averages 2000 and 2006 in many/most categories, with the exception of white/AA ratio.

Male/female ratio is about the same as US: 49%male, 51% female.

Indiana has a larger white population than US average: 87.5% white, 8.4% AA
US average:80.1% white; 12.8% AA

Indiana 2000: 18 yrs and over: 74.1%
US 2006: Under 18%: 24.6%
Indiana 2000: 65 years and over: 12.4%; 7.4% female, 5% male
US 2006: 65 years and over: 12.4%


by susie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indiana is ... one (none / 0)

sorry I was placing it in comparison with Ohio and PA... I was not clear.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indiana is ... one (none / 0)

Agree.


by susie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:04:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

Dude, it's about finding a common ground with a candidate. They can relate to him a hell of a lot easier because of this. The Hoosiers I've seen were all fired up over that 3x3 game.

Well, go ahead and think she's got it locked up. Heck, I agree with you. Indiana's in the tank for Clinton. She shouldn't even go there, it's not worth her time.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As long as it isn't done in 2 minute sections (none / 0)

and is instead done something like 15-30-15 that would be cool.

Otherwise a soundbite affair is a tactical mistake and shouldn't be agreed to.

I mean it's a tactical mistake anyway since it legitimizes Clinton when she's done for but it'd be fun to watch.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:44:27 PM EST

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

nice diary cardboard...i completely agree with your comments ragekage


by aaaa05 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:47:34 PM EST

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

ok I do agree with you it would be a historic experience where both would be able to shine and muffle out McCain, but lets take a step back and look at this tactically.no matter how you look at this Obama is the front runner, so what does he have to gain in a another debate with clinton? and the answer is nothing. Lets face it Clinton Strength is in Debates although Obama  is Gradually getting better he cannot risk giving clinton the Slightest advantage going into Indiana. He will play to his strength and that is talking DIRECTLY to the people which is his advantage. I think that tool cut in Hillary's 20 pt advantage more than outspending her on ads
that bus tour got him alot of votes. the media the publics wants to see if he can close the deal and if he can't on Indiana it will make Hillary that much stronger. now if he loses Indiana and NC then he would need to Debate to make a comeback
John McCain's pick-up line is, 'Did you know that 150 is the new 130?'"
by wellinformed on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:01:43 PM EST

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

To an extent I agree with you.  Obviously, as the author of this diary, I disagree with your broader point.  Obama has a patriotism problem with working class voters, and what is more patriotic than the Lincoln-Douglas debates.  People make connection when watching these things. And, I doubt too many people would be seeing Clinton as Lincoln.  A lot would associate Obama with Lincoln.  The small-time Illinois upstart from the "Party of Hope," verses the long-established Senator from the "Party of Memory"


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:08:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

your right he does have a patriotism problem with the working class  But I highly doubt Lincoln-Douglas debates would in anyway help IMHO  quite frankly I think he has that patriotism problem with the non college degree working class and I Highly doubt that the historic signifigance would appeal to the non college educated working class and me being one of them I was not clear about the History behind the Lincoln douglas debates until this week (and I also learned alot from your diary thanks) but to summarize... I think only Obama's hardcore supporters and political junkies on both sides would appreciate it and not the working class. Hillary is stronger in debates  she is tauting him, I saw James carville on Larry King saying he is running away from debates  look at how many diaries are on this site basically calling him chicken.  look at how they turned a 9-10 pt win in PA into a major propaganda victory..I mean how can she be potrayed as the underdog in PA everyone expected her to win but somehow it was spun into a major upset by Hillary ... Obama  cannot afford another win by Hillary he has to much to lose   again I see nothing he can gain from debating  all i see happening  is people that are on the fence going to clinton because she will perform slightly better  


John McCain's pick-up line is, 'Did you know that 150 is the new 130?'"
by wellinformed on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:20:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pure Strategic Calculus (none / 0)

I know the Clinton supporters want another debate --- it is politically advantageous for their candidate to have another debate.  Beyond personal feelings on who performs better in debates and who has a better grasp of policy, another debate is (1) a chance for Clinton, as the cash-strapped candidate, to get free airtime, (2) the best opportunity for Clinton, who trails in the delegate count and popular vote, to make up ground quickly, (3) a chance that Obama, as frontrunner, could "slip up" on a substance-free "gotcha" question and give Clinton an opening to close the gap and (4) a legitimization that Clinton still has a chance, when Obama's strategy clearly has him now aiming for the general election (the DNC fundraising partnership, the 50-state voter drive, the Fox News interview, etc.).

That's why Clinton turned down debate offers during her Senate career --- it wasn't cowardice (she would have cleaned those clowns' clocks), it wasn't disdain for democratic debate, it wasn't to deny voters the chance to hear the candidates' views --- it was smart political strategy.

Obama is a frontrunner with a lead to protect, going into two big contests (North Carolina and Indiana) where he's the strong favorite in one and running neck-and-neck in the other.  He's performing campaign calculus and making a strategic decision.

The debate concept is an excellent one; just not right now, between these candidates, from Obama's perspective.


by Slim Tyranny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:07:27 PM EST

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

I definitely think they should do it -- not because it would necessarily help either of them, but because it would be historic and fascinating. I was an LD debater in high school, and I always wondered why they'd changed and shortened the format. I don't think it necessarily had anything to do with our short attention spans, because policy debate rounds were still approximately 90 minutes.

I would love to see the candidates do a real Lincoln-Douglas debate. I'm a huge nerd, so I'd have my VCR ready to record two days ahead of time (yeah, I still use my VCR -- I can't afford fancy, newfangled technology like TiVo).


Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:08:45 PM EST

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

haha, I imagine somebody might you-tube and put it on the internets.  This nation has a lot of white male history buffs.  The people who recreate the Civil War, or dress like Lincoln and do to conferences.  I think a lot of Reagan Democrats are "history buff" democrats - probably a lot of our fathers are - this would be a great way to reach out  to them.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

That's true. Obama should consider it for that reason alone -- I think some of the more knowledgeable Reagan Democrats would appreciate the style. It would give Obama an excellent chance to impress them, and I'd really like us to have their votes in November if he's the nominee.


Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:18:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama will not debate anymore (none / 0)

nor should he.  They are useless soundbite competitions.


by bigdcdem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:18:25 PM EST

Re: Obama will not debate anymore (none / 0)

The LD format is not apt for sound bites


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Should Debate (none / 0)

I like the whole idea you proposed, but i think I would prefer a more discussion type of scenario. I think debates tend to be more hostile because people are trying to prove themselves. A discussion would promote more goodwill between the two of them but also get out the issues this should really be about.  I think the only rule there should be is: no mention of scandalous issues. Like wright or lapels or Lewinsky or bosnia-gate. The mere mention of these issues are sure to get the discussion derailed and possibly hostile.

It should be promoted as historic, but that doesn't mean we should follow the exact style of a debate.

No moderators, No commercials, No scandals, just the issues of our time.

Wouldn't it be cool, if they let the public choose the topics??


--++++Stay Gold, Ponyboy!++++--
by amde on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:01:02 PM EST


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